Finally, some sense of reason on the election.
via YesuMulungi.com
THOUGHTS ON THE CURRENT GLOBAL ECONOMIC CRISIS
Kato Mivule
Christian Response to Secular Government…Kato Mivule…Oct 13 2008
It is election time in the USA and Christians are not mandated to vote or not to vote in the Bible, at least by New Testament Teachings. So, the choice to vote and not to vote is left up to the conscience and judgment of a believer.
However, the New Testament is very clear when it comes to what a Christian’s Reponses should be when governed by any secular government. We are not to engage in any type of armed rebellion or incitements just because you disagree with the Ruling Authorities…
A lot of Christian Blogs and websites in America are so scared that Barrack Obama will become the next President of the US that they are busy sending out emails and articles that are nothing but HATE, REBELLION, and FEAR MONGERING that somehow Arab Moslems are going to overrun the US Whitehouse and install Communism.
Many Christians, especially in the “Christian Remnant Movement” are caught up in these Hate Mongering Christian Religious Right sites that they are preparing themselves for Rebellion and in some cases joining ‘Christian Vigilante Militia’ groups so as to ‘Retake America Back’ incase Obama wins the Election…
However, I WARN YOU, that WATCH OUT and don’t be deceived into joining such foolish blood thirsty hate groups. Regardless of who wins the November Elections, the Sky will not fall… Regardless of if McCain wins or Obama wins, the Bible is clear as to what our mandate to government should be as Christians.
Personally, I don’t agree with the Policies of GW Bush but he is still the President of the USA and the Bible commands us that we give him due honor…
I remember when many evangelicals found out that GW Bush was not really a “Christian”, and had begun receding their rights through the Big Brother Patriot Act, some Christians in America begun joining ‘Vigilante Militia’ groups so as to “Retake America Back”…utter foolishness and stupidity!
America’s Religious Right Evangelicals are deceived and their Trust is now in Hate, Rebellion, and the Gun… Don’t follow such men, they are heading to HELL. They hide behind Pro Life, Anti Abortion, Anti Gay, Pro Marriage but are not, they are simply using Christianity as a cover for EVIL… Brethren WATCHOUT and don’t be DECIEVED by POLITICAL CHRISTIANITY!
This is what the New Testament teaches our response should be to Secular Government….
Romans 13:1-8
(1) Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
(2) Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.
(3) For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:
(4) For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.
(5) Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake.
(6) For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God’s ministers, attending continually upon this very thing.
(7) Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honor to whom honor.
(8) Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
1 Peter 2:13-18
(13) Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord’s sake: whether it be to the king, as supreme;
(14) Or unto governors, as unto them that are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers, and for the praise of them that do well.
(15) For so is the will of God, that with well doing ye may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men:
(16) As free, and not using your liberty for a cloak of maliciousness, but as the servants of God.
(17) Honor all men. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honor the king.
(18) Servants, be subject to your masters with all fear; not only to the good and gentle, but also to the froward.
Titus 3:1-2
(1) Put them in mind to be subject to principalities and powers, to obey magistrates, to be ready to every good work,
(2) To speak evil of no man, to be no brawlers, but gentle, showing all meekness unto all men.
October 16th, 2008 1:45 am
“For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil.”
What if a ruler is a terror to good works and not a terror to evil? Could we be justified in disobeying such a leader?
What if we left such a ruler to make our own way in a new land and there make for ourselves a new ruler. Would that new ruler have the right, according to this scripture, to be a terror to evil?
October 16th, 2008 8:24 am
Farrah, good question, but that is not what the bible said. You have to look at this way…God has an absolute plan in place for bringing this world to an end, correct?
Then even the most evil of men would fit into God’s plan.
There is nothing in scripture for Christian’s to lead an open and armed rebellion against the rulers of this world.
I feel you might like Dietrich Boenhoeffer.
October 16th, 2008 12:46 pm
I have no plans for rebellion, but I wanted you to understand I have given some thought to this. I sincerely seek truth, and I don’t blindly follow any man.
I agree the most evil men would fit into God’s plan.
October 16th, 2008 12:59 pm
But what I was thinking is why can’t a ruler go after another ruler (biblically speaking) who is evil? And couldn’t the ruler’s followers take up arms to bring the evil ruler down? It is true that we are to be peacable, but there is a reason for government clearly spelled out in the Word. It’s place is to go after evil men, which is not a very peacable undertaking. Jesus Himself was rather violent in the temple.
October 16th, 2008 2:06 pm
I question these verses and their, as I see arbitrary application. For instance most Christians would break the law if it outlawed practicing Christianity or meeting in groups, similar to what I believe occurs in China. We may also fund efforts to send Bibles into countries where it is illegal, we are going against the powers that be. I think Shane Clariborne examines these verses far better than I could. http://www.jesusforpresident.org/download/Web_Appendix_3.pdf
October 16th, 2008 2:18 pm
First, I believe that Christ and His Law is the supreme, and we must do what we can, within His Law first, to promote the kingdom of God. When Christianity was outlawed, it flourished in the Roman Empire.
Farrah, I do not believe that the bible gives us permission to take up arms to go after another. We are to turn the other cheek, etc… Christ overturned the religious tables, but the political tables. He did not remove the Legions from the Temple, nor the Gentiles, but those that would use the Temple (Church) for a cloak of greed.
October 16th, 2008 5:12 pm
I am well aware of the benefits from the persecution of the early church. They went everywhere…preaching the gospel…
I can certainly understand your position on a Christian taking up arms. However, how do you think a ruler can be a terror to evil works without weapons? Hence the need for armed policemen and perhaps even a military. From my understanding of what I have read here, you think government is OK, but Christians should not be involved. Are you saying that all of our government and military should be made up of heathens? If all of our government and military were made up of complete heathens, I shudder to think how difficult it would be to even live here. Things that I value, such as the ability to homeschool would almost certainly be outlawed, and all sorts of horrific things would be legal. And what if a person in the government suddenly becomes a Christian? Is he to quit his job? Are Christians allowed to work for the government at all? In any capacity? What of the postal service? Or clerks in a courthouse who handle marriage licenses?
I’m being sincere in this discussion. As I said, your beliefs in this area are very strange to me. I am having a difficult time seeing how your beliefs can be well established by scripture. Yet, you seem to be sincere. I am open to learning new truth. I’m not engaging in this discussion to win you over. I’m trying to understand your reasoning.
October 16th, 2008 5:29 pm
Farrah, I appreciate the sincerity.
I do not believe that Christians should be involved in the military. This is not something new, as this is the reason that we have a conscientious objector law. Many denominations pertain to this belief. I am not opposed to Christians working in the government, just attempting to lead it as a Christian, under the banner of the Church.
I believe that even the most fundamentalist Christian may at times delve into the Government, but only as a secularist. We are to remain unspotted in this world, but Farrah, can you really think of any occupation that is legal and so spotted?
I work for a State government, in an appointed position, in a regulatory agency. I would not run for office, although I would want to.
We are not to be conformed to this world, nor are we told to conform the world to us. As a matter of fact, we are told to come out of her. We are told not to entangle ourselves in the affairs of this world and to remain unspotted. We have to take that with a measure of reason. Also, we are told to spread the gospel – not a gospel of laws, but of grace, which changes the heart. We have to be busy about our Father’s business, which is getting to the hearts of the people.
I believe that the government serves an economic purpose, and preserves the corporate morality.
October 16th, 2008 7:10 pm
I also appreciate you current tone. You are coming across as being much more respectful than in the beginning.
That’s true, lots of churches are against Christians serving in the military. I knew that, but I have no strong background teaching on it. I believe I was thinking more of running for office and other positions, though I mentioned the military.
To me, not being conformed to this world has little to do with the government. I have always taken it to mean we are not to partake in sinful things or to engage in sinful thoughts. “But be ye transformed by the renewing OF YOUR MIND…” If I were to run for an office it would not be with the attitude, “Mine is God’s party.” It would be with an attitude of wanting to encourage good laws and discourage bad laws. Laws are necessary, so why not have a Christian making them? But not laws that dictate how people should worship, just laws that affect all of us in how we live from day to day. I don’t see how working for the government is all that different from running for office. Either way, you are doing a government job and getting paid for it. Either way, you are free to witness to those around you, I would think.
Coming out of her means false relgions, in my opinion. I just can’t see it to mean the government. That strikes me as an incredibly materialistic way of looking at and interpreting scripture.
I guess this is a matter of interpretation. It is something the Lord will need to reveal to me, if I am wrong. This is not a case of me disobeying scripture. I honestly don’t see it. Perhaps I need to give up understanding your view for now.
October 16th, 2008 7:46 pm
Farrah,
If one can see that we must not take up arms, then how can we be placed in a position to command those that do?
How can you limit your conformation? Farrah, I really have no problem, as I have said, with a Christian running, if necessary, as a secularist, not as a Christian with the idea that it is unChristian to vote for him or her. Look at Obama. He says that he is a Christian, yet he is running as a secularist. Fine with me. McCain, in 2000, ran the same way. Again, fine with me.
I believe that we would have a different view of ‘her’ in Revelation. Perhaps I will have to post on that sometime in the future. I see it as the entire world system – religion and politics, and in many instances, you cannot separate the two.
Again, if we are to remain unspotted from the world, then where does that stop? (As a matter of fact, where does it begin?)
I believe, Farrah, that we are engaging in a serious discussion and I appreciate your thoughts.
Did you read the post on the Epistle to Diognetus?
October 16th, 2008 11:34 pm
Good point, but I’m not convinced that a Christian can’t take up arms. I know there are many NT scriptures about living in peace, etc. But I’m still not convinced. I’m very picky about commandments from God verses commandments from men. I feel far too often men read scripture and turn it into rules to place on people, when it was never meant to be that way. Some things in scripture are suggestions. The Scribes and Pharisees were horrible about inventing laws and trying to pass them off as hard fast rules for everyone to follow, such as when they asked Jesus why his disciples were eating with unwashed hands.
“If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men.”
It says “if it be possible” leaving it open to the possibility that there are times when it isn’t possible.
Paul discussed how he thinks we would all be better off not marrying, but then he said that it isn’t God’s commandment, just his own suggestion.
I Cor. 7
[6] But I speak this by permission, and not of commandment.
[12] But to the rest speak I, not the Lord:
[35] And this I speak for your own profit; not that I may cast a snare upon you, but for that which is comely, and that ye may attend upon the Lord without distraction.
“Unspotted from the world…” But don’t you see? This is the BEAUTY of scripture. This is why we must not preach our INTERPRETATION of scripture or how it applies to our own personal lives as being a law or rule for everyone else to follow. This is where all the denominations come from. We can certainly preach our own testimonies and how scripture talked to us, but we need to be careful about making rules that everyone else must follow…And condemning them if they don’t. This allows scripture to come alive and to breath and move men the way God wants, not the way we think they should. “And the Word was God…” Scripture is God, and just as men are not our masters, they are also not our scripture translators. We are to be taught the meaning of scripture personally by God. This is why we can draw different lessons and meanings from the same scripture and both be blessed by it. God is teaching us what He wants to teach on an individual basis.
Please let me use this example: The Word says women should dress modestly and not put on gold, basically not to dress to show off. I know of churches where the pastors have taken this bit of scripture and turned it into a code of dress so detailed that it would shock outsiders. In fact, much of my family have worshipped at a church that has broken up and fractured into divisions over picky little rules such as these. In some, women are not to wear white t-shirts, some don’t allow open-toed sandals, some dictate the length of the sleeve and skirt, certain colors are forbidden, bright busy patterns, and on and on. Preach modesty by all means, but let God tell a woman whether or not open-toed sandals are appropriate.
Preach that we keep ourselves “unspotted from the world” but please do not define that for all of us. When you define it, you limit what God can tell others to do. It may not hurt you or them spiritually, but it may cause both of you to miss out on sweet fellowship or blessings.
The reason I am leaning toward it being unchristian to vote for a democrat is NOT because of the people running. It is because of where they stand on issues that I believe go directly against God’s commandments and teachings. However, I would not tell a Christian that he is unchristian for voting democrat. I would, however, think that he is either very ignorant or not very devoted to the Lord. In other words, I might say, “But I speak this by permission, and not of commandment.”
Side note: I don’t think I read that post. I’ll have to see…
“[1] Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations.
[2] For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs.
[3] Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him.
[4] Who art thou that judgest another man’s servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.
[5] One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.
[6] He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.
[7] For none of us liveth to himself, and no man dieth to himself.
[8] For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord’s.
[9] For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.
[10] But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.”
When all is said and done, know this: What I do regarding my involvement in politics, I do for the Lord. I am fully persuaded in my own mind. And clearly, your lack of involvement in politics is for the same reason. I hope you don’t despise and judge Christians too harshly who go into politics and don’t do it as secularists. Some may be very sincere and have good intentions even if they aren’t following scripture according to your interpretation of worldliness.