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	<title>Comments on: Continuing discussions on John&#039;s Prologue</title>
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	<link>http://thechurchofjesuschrist.us/2009/06/continuing-discussions-on-johns-prologue/</link>
	<description>fides quaerens intellectum</description>
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		<title>By: Polycarp</title>
		<link>http://thechurchofjesuschrist.us/2009/06/continuing-discussions-on-johns-prologue/#comment-9313</link>
		<dc:creator>Polycarp</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Jun 2009 18:49:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thechurchofjesuschrist.us/?p=9068#comment-9313</guid>
		<description>For any future readers, please examine:
&lt;a href=&quot;http://mwhitenton.wordpress.com/2009/06/09/translating-the-prologue-of-johns-gospel/&quot; target=&quot;_blank&quot;&gt;http://mwhitenton.wordpress.com/2009/06/09/transl...&lt;/a&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>For any future readers, please examine:<br />
<a href="http://mwhitenton.wordpress.com/2009/06/09/translating-the-prologue-of-johns-gospel/" target="_blank"></a><a href="http://mwhitenton.wordpress.com/2009/06/09/transl.." rel="nofollow">http://mwhitenton.wordpress.com/2009/06/09/transl..</a>.</p>
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		<title>By: Peter Kirk</title>
		<link>http://thechurchofjesuschrist.us/2009/06/continuing-discussions-on-johns-prologue/#comment-9312</link>
		<dc:creator>Peter Kirk</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Jun 2009 17:27:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thechurchofjesuschrist.us/?p=9068#comment-9312</guid>
		<description>Thanks for this, Michael. But I don&#8217;t think your argument stands up. In Greek, a feminine or neuter pronoun in verse 2 would indeed be &#8220;violating rules of concord&#8221;. True, such rules are not absolute, but a violation here would at the very least be a strong statement that the Word is female or inanimate &#8211; if it didn&#8217;t suggest that verse 2 referred to something quite different. The technical way of saying this is that the masculine pronoun, agreeing in gender with logos, is the unmarked variant, and feminine or neuter pronouns would be strongly marked for something.

Actually the situation in English is not that different, except that the unmarked pronoun to refer back to &#8220;word&#8221; is &#8220;it&#8221;. The use of &#8220;he&#8221; instead in a translation is strongly marked to indicate something, most probably the maleness of the Word. Translators need at least to know that that is what they are communicating by using &#8220;he&#8221;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for this, Michael. But I don&rsquo;t think your argument stands up. In Greek, a feminine or neuter pronoun in verse 2 would indeed be &ldquo;violating rules of concord&rdquo;. True, such rules are not absolute, but a violation here would at the very least be a strong statement that the Word is female or inanimate &ndash; if it didn&rsquo;t suggest that verse 2 referred to something quite different. The technical way of saying this is that the masculine pronoun, agreeing in gender with logos, is the unmarked variant, and feminine or neuter pronouns would be strongly marked for something.</p>
<p>Actually the situation in English is not that different, except that the unmarked pronoun to refer back to &ldquo;word&rdquo; is &ldquo;it&rdquo;. The use of &ldquo;he&rdquo; instead in a translation is strongly marked to indicate something, most probably the maleness of the Word. Translators need at least to know that that is what they are communicating by using &ldquo;he&rdquo;.</p>
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		<title>By: Translating the Prologue of John&#8217;s Gospel &#171; Ecce Homo</title>
		<link>http://thechurchofjesuschrist.us/2009/06/continuing-discussions-on-johns-prologue/#comment-9311</link>
		<dc:creator>Translating the Prologue of John&#8217;s Gospel &#171; Ecce Homo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Jun 2009 16:19:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thechurchofjesuschrist.us/?p=9068#comment-9311</guid>
		<description>[...] of the possible connections between Sophia and Logos. I first became aware of the conversation via Polycarp, where I found links to discussions from J.K. Gayle and Peter [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] of the possible connections between Sophia and Logos. I first became aware of the conversation via Polycarp, where I found links to discussions from J.K. Gayle and Peter [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Qumran and John&#8217;s Prologue &#124; The Church of Jesus Christ</title>
		<link>http://thechurchofjesuschrist.us/2009/06/continuing-discussions-on-johns-prologue/#comment-9310</link>
		<dc:creator>Qumran and John&#8217;s Prologue &#124; The Church of Jesus Christ</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 08 Jun 2009 12:01:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thechurchofjesuschrist.us/?p=9068#comment-9310</guid>
		<description>[...] our Discussion on John&#8217;s Prologue from last week, I want to highlight a few of the Palestinean sources of John&#8217;s language. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] our Discussion on John&#8217;s Prologue from last week, I want to highlight a few of the Palestinean sources of John&#8217;s language. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Michael Whitenton</title>
		<link>http://thechurchofjesuschrist.us/2009/06/continuing-discussions-on-johns-prologue/#comment-9309</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael Whitenton</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 07 Jun 2009 19:37:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thechurchofjesuschrist.us/?p=9068#comment-9309</guid>
		<description>Hi Joel: Interesting conversation going on here. While I&#039;m confident that logos has wisdom connotations, it seems to me that those connotations should not be pressed too hard.

With reference to the translation of the pronouns in the Prologue, I think that the evidence for a neuter or feminine translation, though provocative, is lacking.

Let me explain. John 1.1c states  &#954;&#945;ὶ &#952;&#949;ὸ&#962; ἦ&#957; ὁ &#955;ό&#947;&#959;&#962; (and the word/statement/logos was God). Here the anarthrous predicate nominative (not the subject) is &#952;&#949;ό&#962;. It&#039;s placement before the copulative makes it most likely that it carries a qualitative force. Thus, &quot;the word was divine&quot; or some such thing. [Let me know if I need to explain this step further.]

Now, and this is what&#039;s important for the translation of the pronouns, John 1.2 continues &#959;ὗ&#964;&#959;&#962; ἦ&#957; ἐ&#957; ἀ&#961;&#967;ῇ &#960;&#961;ὸ&#962; &#964;ὸ&#957; &#952;&#949;ό&#957; (This one existed in the beginning with God). The referent of the demonstrative pronoun, &#959;ὗ&#964;&#959;&#962;, is ὁ &#955;ό&#947;&#959;&#962; from 1.1c. If the author of the Prologue had intended a neuter or feminine connotation, he or she would have shown it in the choosing of the demonstrative, preferring &#945;ὕ&#964;&#951; or &#964;&#959;ῦ&#964;&#959; over the masculine &#959;ὗ&#964;&#959;&#962;. Such a substitution would have been natural, not violating rules of concord. However, the author went with the masculine &#959;ὗ&#964;&#959;&#962;. While the pronouns that follow could be construed as neuter (&#945;ὐ&#964;&#959;ῦ), their antecedent, &#959;ὗ&#964;&#959;&#962;, cannot be.

Thus, I don&#039;t think there is ample grammatical evidence to support the shift from the traditional, masculine, translation.

I&#039;m sure I&#039;m missing something, or restating something someone else has already said. After all, I am entering a conversation that has been ongoing. If I&#039;ve done this, please accept my apologies.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Joel: Interesting conversation going on here. While I&#039;m confident that logos has wisdom connotations, it seems to me that those connotations should not be pressed too hard.</p>
<p>With reference to the translation of the pronouns in the Prologue, I think that the evidence for a neuter or feminine translation, though provocative, is lacking.</p>
<p>Let me explain. John 1.1c states  &kappa;&alpha;ὶ &theta;&epsilon;ὸ&sigmaf; ἦ&nu; ὁ &lambda;ό&gamma;&omicron;&sigmaf; (and the word/statement/logos was God). Here the anarthrous predicate nominative (not the subject) is &theta;&epsilon;ό&sigmaf;. It&#039;s placement before the copulative makes it most likely that it carries a qualitative force. Thus, &quot;the word was divine&quot; or some such thing. [Let me know if I need to explain this step further.]</p>
<p>Now, and this is what&#039;s important for the translation of the pronouns, John 1.2 continues &omicron;ὗ&tau;&omicron;&sigmaf; ἦ&nu; ἐ&nu; ἀ&rho;&chi;ῇ &pi;&rho;ὸ&sigmaf; &tau;ὸ&nu; &theta;&epsilon;ό&nu; (This one existed in the beginning with God). The referent of the demonstrative pronoun, &omicron;ὗ&tau;&omicron;&sigmaf;, is ὁ &lambda;ό&gamma;&omicron;&sigmaf; from 1.1c. If the author of the Prologue had intended a neuter or feminine connotation, he or she would have shown it in the choosing of the demonstrative, preferring &alpha;ὕ&tau;&eta; or &tau;&omicron;ῦ&tau;&omicron; over the masculine &omicron;ὗ&tau;&omicron;&sigmaf;. Such a substitution would have been natural, not violating rules of concord. However, the author went with the masculine &omicron;ὗ&tau;&omicron;&sigmaf;. While the pronouns that follow could be construed as neuter (&alpha;ὐ&tau;&omicron;ῦ), their antecedent, &omicron;ὗ&tau;&omicron;&sigmaf;, cannot be.</p>
<p>Thus, I don&#039;t think there is ample grammatical evidence to support the shift from the traditional, masculine, translation.</p>
<p>I&#039;m sure I&#039;m missing something, or restating something someone else has already said. After all, I am entering a conversation that has been ongoing. If I&#039;ve done this, please accept my apologies.</p>
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		<title>By: Sunday Thoughts - 6/7 &#124; The Church of Jesus Christ</title>
		<link>http://thechurchofjesuschrist.us/2009/06/continuing-discussions-on-johns-prologue/#comment-9308</link>
		<dc:creator>Sunday Thoughts - 6/7 &#124; The Church of Jesus Christ</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 07 Jun 2009 12:00:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thechurchofjesuschrist.us/?p=9068#comment-9308</guid>
		<description>[...] have enjoyed this week, especially the conversations on the translation on certain pronouns in John&#8217;s Prologue. I have something that I hope to post this week, detailing John&#8217;s [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] have enjoyed this week, especially the conversations on the translation on certain pronouns in John&#8217;s Prologue. I have something that I hope to post this week, detailing John&#8217;s [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Polycarp</title>
		<link>http://thechurchofjesuschrist.us/2009/06/continuing-discussions-on-johns-prologue/#comment-9307</link>
		<dc:creator>Polycarp</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 07 Jun 2009 00:45:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thechurchofjesuschrist.us/?p=9068#comment-9307</guid>
		<description>Indeed, Peter, as I noted in a previous post - also, I note:

&lt;blockquote&gt;For John the Baptist came neither eating bread nor drinking wine, and you say, &quot;He has a demon.&#039; The Son of Man has come eating and drinking, and you say, &quot;Look, a glutton and a winebibber, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!&#039; But wisdom is justified by all her children.&quot; (Luke 7:33-35 NKJV)

Therefore the wisdom of God also said, \&quot;I will send them prophets and apostles, and some of them they will kill and persecute,\&#039; (Luke 11:49 NKJV)

&lt;/blockquote&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Indeed, Peter, as I noted in a previous post &#8211; also, I note:</p>
<blockquote><p>For John the Baptist came neither eating bread nor drinking wine, and you say, &quot;He has a demon.&#39; The Son of Man has come eating and drinking, and you say, &quot;Look, a glutton and a winebibber, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!&#39; But wisdom is justified by all her children.&quot; (Luke 7:33-35 NKJV)</p>
<p>Therefore the wisdom of God also said, \&quot;I will send them prophets and apostles, and some of them they will kill and persecute,\&#39; (Luke 11:49 NKJV)</p>
</blockquote>
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		<title>By: polycarp</title>
		<link>http://thechurchofjesuschrist.us/2009/06/continuing-discussions-on-johns-prologue/#comment-9306</link>
		<dc:creator>polycarp</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 06 Jun 2009 20:45:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thechurchofjesuschrist.us/?p=9068#comment-9306</guid>
		<description>Indeed, Peter, as I noted in a previous post - also, I note:

&lt;blockquote&gt;For John the Baptist came neither eating bread nor drinking wine, and you say, \\&quot;He has a demon.\\&#039; The Son of Man has come eating and drinking, and you say, \\&quot;Look, a glutton and a winebibber, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!\\&#039; But wisdom is justified by all her children.\\&quot; (Luke 7:33-35 NKJV)

Therefore the wisdom of God also said, \\&quot;I will send them prophets and apostles, and some of them they will kill and persecute,\\&#039; (Luke 11:49 NKJV)

&lt;/blockquote&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Indeed, Peter, as I noted in a previous post &#8211; also, I note:</p>
<blockquote><p>For John the Baptist came neither eating bread nor drinking wine, and you say, \\&quot;He has a demon.\\&#039; The Son of Man has come eating and drinking, and you say, \\&quot;Look, a glutton and a winebibber, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!\\&#039; But wisdom is justified by all her children.\\&quot; (Luke 7:33-35 NKJV)</p>
<p>Therefore the wisdom of God also said, \\&quot;I will send them prophets and apostles, and some of them they will kill and persecute,\\&#039; (Luke 11:49 NKJV)</p>
</blockquote>
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		<title>By: Peter Kirk</title>
		<link>http://thechurchofjesuschrist.us/2009/06/continuing-discussions-on-johns-prologue/#comment-9305</link>
		<dc:creator>Peter Kirk</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 06 Jun 2009 20:28:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thechurchofjesuschrist.us/?p=9068#comment-9305</guid>
		<description>Good points. Note that Jesus Christ is explicitly called the wisdom of God in 1 Corinthians 1:24.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Good points. Note that Jesus Christ is explicitly called the wisdom of God in 1 Corinthians 1:24.</p>
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