Ben Witherington III, in a story on John Calvin, remarks,
I also discovered that Calvinism is actually in the main a redoing of Augustine’s theology. Calvin’s is not at all a distinctively Protestant form of theologizing. But he deserves full marks for working out the logical implications of Augustinianism to the nth degree, as well as for adding some new wrinkles.
Jonathan Wright comments,
I’ll be brutally honest. I’m not a fan of many of Augustine’s conclusions but, as much as I’d sometimes like to punch the Bishop of Hippo on the nose, I’d reserve my most splenetic criticism for those who have abused his legacy.
Augustine helped to invent the notion of coercion in matters of faith but, when you look at the facts, he was much keener on civilised debate (albeit backed up by the threat of force) than extreme punishment. In this arena, as Chadwick opines, Augustine’s ideas have been “disastrously exploited” by those who came after him.
As for predestination, sex, or ecclesial authority: don’t get me started. Augustine was often self-satisfied and intolerant but, then, who wasn’t in the fifth century? At least Augustine thought hard and deeply, and the sins of the children oughtn’t to obscure the achievements of the father.
As a commentator noted this week, the East (Orthodox) has great disdain both for Augustine and Calvin. While I find great strength of wisdom in Augustine, and lately, in Calvin, I cannot agree with the conclusions concerning predestination which both men shared – to some extent – but they do not deserve the disdain of the East, do they?
The bishop who knew the glory and misery of man – Catholic Herald Online.
September 29th, 2009 2:09 am
Fighting over fan fiction and the third book.
September 29th, 2009 10:01 am
yes. Augustine does deserve the disdain of the east.
September 29th, 2009 11:35 am
I would take difference here! As one that was somewhat educated in both Roman Catholicism and then classic Anglicanism. And also, one that was involved closely with the E. Orthodox in a dialogue form and fellowship. I feel that I can speak again in somewhat calm historic fashion at least. This is once again both a theological and real cultural problem. Those in the West that think they can know and understand the East, without knowing something of this situation are sadly ignorant! Of course we all have our place in and from both. This is part of the very problem! So we cannot write a full defense in either direction, East or West on a blog. But this is the real issue! It is both hermeneutical-epistemological and historical! But Augustine will always hold his position as one that, at all events stands as the great figure between the two great ages — Graeco-Roman and Christian — knitting them together, and warning us that they can be too sharply contrasted! So Augustine is the West, with Tertullian…simply!
Fr. Robert (Anglican)
September 29th, 2009 11:53 am
I thought everyone knew that Calvin drew from Augustine, so did Luther. Augustine’s legacy can always be debated, but his impact on Christianity cannot. Most of the people who whine about Augustine don’t even realize that he pioneered the language used to describe their most cherished doctrines. Original Sin is an example that comes to mind. If I am remembering my history correctly, Augustine was the person who made solid arguments linking Paul’s statements about human nature to Genesis and formulating our present understanding of Original Sin.
September 29th, 2009 12:04 pm
Amen to that! This is also one of those weak places in Orthodoxy, i.e. sin and its imputation! Without a sound doctrine of sin, we simply cannot have a sound and solid doctrine of grace, or as we who stand with Tertullian, Augustine, and Calvin, and finally St. Paul…the “doctrines of grace!
Fr. R.
September 29th, 2009 12:29 pm
Can you name anyone in Christendom who did a better job w/ the exegesis of this humble little chapter in the Bible than Augustine, Calvin, and Luther? Maybe John Owen, too:
http://bit.ly/2EZpqk
September 29th, 2009 12:33 pm
I think it is noteworthy, that the East feels keenly the sharp strength of Augustine and his Western counterpart in especially Calvin (as too Luther). Calvinism has become anathema to the E. Orthodox! Again, this is a hermeneutical and theological difference, but also most certainly cultural. Calvin at 500 is still going strong!
Fr. R.
September 29th, 2009 12:39 pm
Agree Sam, also Chrysostom leans here I think. He sought to reform the corrupt court and church.
Fr. R.
September 29th, 2009 1:21 pm
Could it be that the East’s disdain for Augustine is centered on his rather unfair treatment of Cassian?
And yes, everyone should know that Calvin more than makes up for the East’s disdain for Augustine.
September 29th, 2009 2:46 pm
This area might be my bag somewhat? Remember I was a Benedictine in my early 20’s. (I even spent a year in Rome, at the Pontifical Institute -English sec, there is one my secrets out into blogdom, lol.) I too have read my share of Cassian. But sure, much more of Augustine. And I am much more Augustinian, and even Reformed…gee I wonder if anyone knew, or picked up on that? lol
Fr. R.
September 29th, 2009 2:50 pm
I think we can all agree that John Chrysostom is the best theologian/preacher of the era.
October 18th, 2009 11:11 pm
[...] Augustine may lead one to wonder should we treat him as exclusively a hero for Roman Catholics, or an enemy to those who admire Eastern Orthodoxy or perhaps a champion of Christian [...]
September 29th, 2009 12:42 pm
Rod,
Would you care to opine your thought?
September 29th, 2009 12:56 pm
Friends, sorry I have not responded – PLEASE CARRY ON – as I have had server troubles.
September 29th, 2009 2:00 pm
Joel,
John Cassian’s monastic rule was very close to that of St. Benedict, so I do not think that the problem here was an East / West one. It was simply very early too. No, the problem is one of theology, and here is his semipelagianism. It was in fact Cassian that wrote first against Augustine’s doctrine of grace, in his (Cassian’s) ‘Conferences’. We should note too, that in the West he has never been officially canonized (as the East) and this certainly has nothing really to do with Augustine personally. But again, it is most theological! Also Rome has a feast day for him (July 23), though as said, he has no full status as a saint in the West or Rome.
Fr. R.
September 29th, 2009 2:05 pm
PS…So your idea of Augustine being “unfair” with Cassian, is once again, a point from one’s theological position it seems rather than the history itself?
Fr. R.
September 29th, 2009 2:12 pm
No, I think history pretty well shows that Augustine and the West was unfair to Cassian – your comment on his ’semipelagianism’ proves that, I believe.
But, in the end, it is a theological view point. Myself, I readily admit that what I have read of Cassian, I like his stances – and even some of Augustine as well.
September 29th, 2009 2:25 pm
Joel,
I was quoting from Catholic history, and not my own personal views. Check out the R. Catholic take on Augustine and Cassian. You are taking the Eastern side, which is fine. And it simply must be stated that Cassian was much more of a monastic, than a theolog. This tends to BE an Eastern place too (monastic in theology).
Fr. R.
September 29th, 2009 2:30 pm
I apologize, then, Fr. Robert – I thought that they were you views.
Not sure I would completely take any side on this – not without further study.
September 29th, 2009 2:56 pm
Let me attempt a revision of your statement – the NJeremiah Translation Version
And his pastoral skills leave little to be desired.
September 29th, 2009 2:57 pm
What? You Augustine? You could know me down with a feather
September 29th, 2009 3:06 pm
Amen’s from me! Now here is a real “Doctor of the Church”!