Comments on: Top 10 worst Bible passages (And 2 other Top 10 Lists) http://thechurchofjesuschrist.us/2009/09/top-10-worst-bible-passages-and-2-other-top-10-lists/ fides quaerens intellectum Fri, 19 Mar 2010 13:28:04 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.2 hourly 1 By: Polycarp http://thechurchofjesuschrist.us/2009/09/top-10-worst-bible-passages-and-2-other-top-10-lists/#comment-11977 Polycarp Mon, 14 Sep 2009 03:23:56 +0000 http://thechurchofjesuschrist.us/?p=12392#comment-11977 Wesley's prevenient Grace, just as Calvin and Augustine, I believe, is the grace with calls us to Christ. We can not come to Christ on our own, but must be called to Him. If we say with John the Baptizer that the Law come by Moses, but Grace by Christ (Incarnation), then the idea of NT Grace remains so that only after the Cross can God achieve in us what He has worked, which is a right standing before Him, as it was in the days of Eden. The Law is our school master, but could not provide then God-kind of righteousness which is needed to be holy in His presence. Wesley’s prevenient Grace, just as Calvin and Augustine, I believe, is the grace with calls us to Christ. We can not come to Christ on our own, but must be called to Him. If we say with John the Baptizer that the Law come by Moses, but Grace by Christ (Incarnation), then the idea of NT Grace remains so that only after the Cross can God achieve in us what He has worked, which is a right standing before Him, as it was in the days of Eden. The Law is our school master, but could not provide then God-kind of righteousness which is needed to be holy in His presence.

]]> By: Fr. Robert http://thechurchofjesuschrist.us/2009/09/top-10-worst-bible-passages-and-2-other-top-10-lists/#comment-11976 Fr. Robert Mon, 14 Sep 2009 03:19:08 +0000 http://thechurchofjesuschrist.us/?p=12392#comment-11976 Joel, Y is right here as to both Calvin and Wesley! Fr. R. Joel,
Y is right here as to both Calvin and Wesley!
Fr. R.

]]> By: YITLOG http://thechurchofjesuschrist.us/2009/09/top-10-worst-bible-passages-and-2-other-top-10-lists/#comment-11975 YITLOG Mon, 14 Sep 2009 03:16:20 +0000 http://thechurchofjesuschrist.us/?p=12392#comment-11975 No Polycarp not John Calvin's understanding of regeneration...Rather John Wesley's understanding of Prevenient grace...That is the (help) freely given by God to all...Titus 2:11... Let us not forget they who were first called the ' church' Acts 7:38...Yet most of them-save a few resisted the Spirit of Grace and truth and never received the gift of faith that saves... No Polycarp not John Calvin’s understanding of regeneration…Rather John Wesley’s understanding of Prevenient grace…That is the (help) freely given by God to all…Titus 2:11…

Let us not forget they who were first called the ‘ church’ Acts 7:38…Yet most of them-save a few resisted the Spirit of Grace and truth and never received the gift of faith that saves…

]]> By: Polycarp http://thechurchofjesuschrist.us/2009/09/top-10-worst-bible-passages-and-2-other-top-10-lists/#comment-11968 Polycarp Mon, 14 Sep 2009 02:50:22 +0000 http://thechurchofjesuschrist.us/?p=12392#comment-11968 In my opinion, this goes back to the Calvinist understanding of regeneration. In my opinion, this goes back to the Calvinist understanding of regeneration.

]]> By: Polycarp http://thechurchofjesuschrist.us/2009/09/top-10-worst-bible-passages-and-2-other-top-10-lists/#comment-11967 Polycarp Mon, 14 Sep 2009 02:39:57 +0000 http://thechurchofjesuschrist.us/?p=12392#comment-11967 They had faith in the Promises, but the Promise was only fulfilled in Christ. They did in the promises, but were perfected in us - the Church, this new City. I don't think I wait with Abraham, Y, but now wait for the heavenly sit. Again, I refer to Hebrews 11.39-40. As Calvin says, here: <blockquote>By the words, that they received not the promise, is to be understood its ultimate fulfillment, which took place in Christ, on which subject something has been said already.</blockquote> If regeneration could be achieved without Christ through the sacrifices of the Law, then what would be the necessity of Christ? I must again go back to Regeneration as the Second Birth - and it is only brought through Christ. They had faith in the Promises, but the Promise was only fulfilled in Christ. They did in the promises, but were perfected in us – the Church, this new City. I don’t think I wait with Abraham, Y, but now wait for the heavenly sit. Again, I refer to Hebrews 11.39-40.

As Calvin says, here:

By the words, that they received not the promise, is to be understood its ultimate fulfillment, which took place in Christ, on which subject something has been said already.

If regeneration could be achieved without Christ through the sacrifices of the Law, then what would be the necessity of Christ?

I must again go back to Regeneration as the Second Birth – and it is only brought through Christ.

]]> By: YITLOG http://thechurchofjesuschrist.us/2009/09/top-10-worst-bible-passages-and-2-other-top-10-lists/#comment-11966 YITLOG Mon, 14 Sep 2009 02:09:17 +0000 http://thechurchofjesuschrist.us/?p=12392#comment-11966 Polycarp what happens to those who died in faith before Jesus came? They having faith in all the promises of God.Not just of his coming...But like Abraham who looked for (awaited) the ' city ' Perhaps the New Jerusalem? Who's builder and maker is God...All who believe(d) were and are sojourners and pilgrims ' here' including us...Genesis 47:9- Hebrews 11:8-10 and 1 Peter 2:11,12 Polycarp what happens to those who died in faith before Jesus came? They having faith in all the promises of God.Not just of his coming…But like Abraham who looked for (awaited) the ‘ city ‘ Perhaps the New Jerusalem? Who’s builder and maker is God…All who believe(d) were and are sojourners and pilgrims ‘ here’ including us…Genesis 47:9- Hebrews 11:8-10 and 1 Peter 2:11,12

]]> By: Polycarp http://thechurchofjesuschrist.us/2009/09/top-10-worst-bible-passages-and-2-other-top-10-lists/#comment-11970 Polycarp Mon, 14 Sep 2009 01:40:08 +0000 http://thechurchofjesuschrist.us/?p=12392#comment-11970 Y, Christ's atonement fulfillment completed the promise - and those that had looked forward to it received the reward, but it did not take effect until the Act. How can you be born again unless Christ has brought the new birth? Y, Christ’s atonement fulfillment completed the promise – and those that had looked forward to it received the reward, but it did not take effect until the Act.

How can you be born again unless Christ has brought the new birth?

]]> By: YITLOG http://thechurchofjesuschrist.us/2009/09/top-10-worst-bible-passages-and-2-other-top-10-lists/#comment-11962 YITLOG Mon, 14 Sep 2009 01:34:49 +0000 http://thechurchofjesuschrist.us/?p=12392#comment-11962 Polycarp-does not the actual atonement made on Calvary ' complete' the promise made in Genesis 3:15? We do not believe that Christ' atonement was limited-to certain generations or people-right? I believe that they spoken of in Hebrews 11 having not ' received ' the promise means that they did not live to see with their own eyes the coming of Christ..The promise in the flesh...I do not think it means that they were not born again (regenerated.... Polycarp-does not the actual atonement made on Calvary ‘ complete’ the promise made in Genesis 3:15? We do not believe that Christ’ atonement was limited-to certain generations or people-right?

I believe that they spoken of in Hebrews 11 having not ‘ received ‘ the promise means that they did not live to see with their own eyes the coming of Christ..The promise in the flesh…I do not think it means that they were not born again (regenerated….

]]> By: Polycarp http://thechurchofjesuschrist.us/2009/09/top-10-worst-bible-passages-and-2-other-top-10-lists/#comment-11960 Polycarp Mon, 14 Sep 2009 01:09:56 +0000 http://thechurchofjesuschrist.us/?p=12392#comment-11960 Y - If regeneration, the new birth, was offered before Christ, then there is no need for Christ. This is not a matter of dispensationalism, but a matter that before Christ, we had the Law, and sacrifices, works, but as the writer of Hebrews notes, all those that have gone before us did not receive the promise and we also know, that no one was set right before God until Christ. Further, we know that Israelites did sacrifice to God - even those that believe that YHWH was one of many. Further, we note that the Law was about the flesh - but Christ is about the Spirit: <blockquote>For if the blood of bulls and goats and the ashes of a heifer, sprinkling the unclean, sanctifies for the purifying of the flesh, how much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without spot to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? (Heb 9:13-14 NKJ)</blockquote> Y – If regeneration, the new birth, was offered before Christ, then there is no need for Christ. This is not a matter of dispensationalism, but a matter that before Christ, we had the Law, and sacrifices, works, but as the writer of Hebrews notes, all those that have gone before us did not receive the promise and we also know, that no one was set right before God until Christ.

Further, we know that Israelites did sacrifice to God – even those that believe that YHWH was one of many. Further, we note that the Law was about the flesh – but Christ is about the Spirit:

For if the blood of bulls and goats and the ashes of a heifer, sprinkling the unclean, sanctifies for the purifying of the flesh, how much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without spot to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? (Heb 9:13-14 NKJ)

]]> By: YITLOG http://thechurchofjesuschrist.us/2009/09/top-10-worst-bible-passages-and-2-other-top-10-lists/#comment-11961 YITLOG Mon, 14 Sep 2009 01:04:08 +0000 http://thechurchofjesuschrist.us/?p=12392#comment-11961 Ok Polycarp…Sorta sounds like dispensationalism to me…Which i know for a fact that you do not belong to that ‘group’…No matter-All who have ‘ believed’ and believe will see the Glory of the Lord together-in one body perfected (complete) when he comes again… I have to say this then i will let it go…I do not believe that Abel the brother of Cain (who was not a Jew) could have offered his sacrifice with the right heart towards God-had he not been regenerated first… Anyway this was a good discussion… See ya later… Sorry about the double post... Ok Polycarp…Sorta sounds like dispensationalism to me…Which i know for a fact that you do not belong to that ‘group’…No matter-All who have ‘ believed’ and believe will see the Glory of the Lord together-in one body perfected (complete) when he comes again…

I have to say this then i will let it go…I do not believe that Abel the brother of Cain (who was not a Jew) could have offered his sacrifice with the right heart towards God-had he not been regenerated first… Anyway this was a good discussion…

See ya later…

Sorry about the double post…

]]> By: Polycarp http://thechurchofjesuschrist.us/2009/09/top-10-worst-bible-passages-and-2-other-top-10-lists/#comment-11953 Polycarp Mon, 14 Sep 2009 00:27:48 +0000 http://thechurchofjesuschrist.us/?p=12392#comment-11953 Y, as Paul wrote to Titus (Titus 3.4-6), <blockquote>But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared, not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life (Tit 3:4-7 NKJ)</blockquote> Regeneration literally means new birth - Christ brings us the New Birth. Regeneration can only occur after the Incarnation. Yes, if regeneration is the making us alive, it is only through the death and resurrection of Christ (Romans 6.1-9), not the works of the Law, which is the only thing the Prophets had. Otherwise, the Law was sufficient, and Christ needless. Abraham had faith, indeed, but he still had to offer to sacrifice for his sins. We have one sacrifice - Christ. Abraham, and the Prophets, and the Jews, looked to this day - which does not mean that they had Christ was thus regenerated. Regeneration can only happen through the faithfulness of Christ, which is the Cross - which no one had, many looked forward to, until Calvary. Y, as Paul wrote to Titus (Titus 3.4-6),

But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared, not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life (Tit 3:4-7 NKJ)

Regeneration literally means new birth – Christ brings us the New Birth. Regeneration can only occur after the Incarnation.

Yes, if regeneration is the making us alive, it is only through the death and resurrection of Christ (Romans 6.1-9), not the works of the Law, which is the only thing the Prophets had. Otherwise, the Law was sufficient, and Christ needless.

Abraham had faith, indeed, but he still had to offer to sacrifice for his sins. We have one sacrifice – Christ. Abraham, and the Prophets, and the Jews, looked to this day – which does not mean that they had Christ was thus regenerated.

Regeneration can only happen through the faithfulness of Christ, which is the Cross – which no one had, many looked forward to, until Calvary.

]]> By: YITLOG http://thechurchofjesuschrist.us/2009/09/top-10-worst-bible-passages-and-2-other-top-10-lists/#comment-11969 YITLOG Mon, 14 Sep 2009 00:13:24 +0000 http://thechurchofjesuschrist.us/?p=12392#comment-11969 Polycarp is not regeneration the quickening/making alive or giving new life-to the soul which is dead in trespasses and sins? Ephesians 2:1. The Gospel was certainly preached to Abraham-and the Jews were the first to believe in Christ (Eph 1:12)...Or better said the promise of his coming...What then would the purpose of the preaching of the Gospel-had those who heard it (before) not received the down payment of the Spirit? Ephesians 1:10-13... Yes grace and truth came by Jesus and the law was but a school-master...As the Apostle Paul said-how would he have known 'coveting' had it not been written...Romans 7:7... Further it seems to me that Moses knew what and to whom he looked forward too.Hebrews 11:26... It was revealed by the angel Gabriel to Daniel the Seer/Prophet precisely when he (Jesus the Messiah/Christ) would come and when he would die for the sins of the people and for the world...And so he wrote it in 9:27... In Matthew 13:17 Jesus was speaking to that 'generation'...They had the Lord of Glory before there face...We have not seen him nor have we heard him...Yet we believe...For this cause those of ' that generation' who believed and US- will not be made complete (perfect) apart from they which are spoken of in Hebrews 11...I do not believe that this speaks of regeneration... Polycarp is not regeneration the quickening/making alive or giving new life-to the soul which is dead in trespasses and sins? Ephesians 2:1.

The Gospel was certainly preached to Abraham-and the Jews were the first to believe in Christ (Eph 1:12)…Or better said the promise of his coming…What then would the purpose of the preaching of the Gospel-had those who heard it (before) not received the down payment of the Spirit? Ephesians 1:10-13…

Yes grace and truth came by Jesus and the law was but a school-master…As the Apostle Paul said-how would he have known ‘coveting’ had it not been written…Romans 7:7…
Further it seems to me that Moses knew what and to whom he looked forward too.Hebrews 11:26…

It was revealed by the angel Gabriel to Daniel the Seer/Prophet precisely when he (Jesus the Messiah/Christ) would come and when he would die for the sins of the people and for the world…And so he wrote it in 9:27…

In Matthew 13:17 Jesus was speaking to that ‘generation’…They had the Lord of Glory before there face…We have not seen him nor have we heard him…Yet we believe…For this cause those of ‘ that generation’ who believed and US- will not be made complete (perfect) apart from they which are spoken of in Hebrews 11…I do not believe that this speaks of regeneration…

]]> By: Polycarp http://thechurchofjesuschrist.us/2009/09/top-10-worst-bible-passages-and-2-other-top-10-lists/#comment-11971 Polycarp Sun, 13 Sep 2009 23:08:18 +0000 http://thechurchofjesuschrist.us/?p=12392#comment-11971 But, what is regeneration? Is it not the removal of condemnation/judgment? In Romans 5.1, condemnation is removed because of Christ's work on the cross. How then can anyone before Christ be regenerated? Further, we note that the Prophets searched for the time of Salvation - but did not find it. Surely, regenerated people would have no further need of Salvation (1st Peter 1.9-10; Matthew 13.17; Hebrews 11.39-40) Further, as Calvin said, <blockquote> First, "who was in them," and secondly, "testifying," that is, giving a testimony, by which expression he intimates that the prophets were endued with the Spirit of knowledge, and indeed in no common manner, as those who have been teachers and witnesses to us, and that yet they were not partakers of that light which is exhibited to us. </blockquote> When the Spirit of Christ is within them - their words - this does not signify the regeneration due to the Grace which Christ brought. Further, we can only receive the new man through Christ (Col 3.8-10) But, what is regeneration? Is it not the removal of condemnation/judgment? In Romans 5.1, condemnation is removed because of Christ’s work on the cross. How then can anyone before Christ be regenerated?

Further, we note that the Prophets searched for the time of Salvation – but did not find it. Surely, regenerated people would have no further need of Salvation (1st Peter 1.9-10; Matthew 13.17; Hebrews 11.39-40)

Further, as Calvin said,

First, “who was in them,” and secondly, “testifying,” that is, giving a testimony, by which expression he intimates that the prophets were endued with the Spirit of knowledge, and indeed in no common manner, as those who have been teachers and witnesses to us, and that yet they were not partakers of that light which is exhibited to us.

When the Spirit of Christ is within them – their words – this does not signify the regeneration due to the Grace which Christ brought.

Further, we can only receive the new man through Christ (Col 3.8-10)

]]> By: Fr. Robert http://thechurchofjesuschrist.us/2009/09/top-10-worst-bible-passages-and-2-other-top-10-lists/#comment-11965 Fr. Robert Sun, 13 Sep 2009 22:56:52 +0000 http://thechurchofjesuschrist.us/?p=12392#comment-11965 Y, very good question, and scripture reference! Fr. R. Y, very good question, and scripture reference!
Fr. R.

]]> By: YITLOG http://thechurchofjesuschrist.us/2009/09/top-10-worst-bible-passages-and-2-other-top-10-lists/#comment-11964 YITLOG Sun, 13 Sep 2009 22:48:11 +0000 http://thechurchofjesuschrist.us/?p=12392#comment-11964 Polycarp you do not believe that OT saints were indwelled by the Spirit? What did the Apostle Peter mean-when he said that the Spirit of Christ was ' in' the Prophets? 1 Peter 1:11... Polycarp you do not believe that OT saints were indwelled by the Spirit? What did the Apostle Peter mean-when he said that the Spirit of Christ was ‘ in’ the Prophets? 1 Peter 1:11…

]]> By: Fr. Robert http://thechurchofjesuschrist.us/2009/09/top-10-worst-bible-passages-and-2-other-top-10-lists/#comment-11963 Fr. Robert Sun, 13 Sep 2009 22:43:09 +0000 http://thechurchofjesuschrist.us/?p=12392#comment-11963 Joel, Check out some modern Theolog's here, on this subject. Especially the Dutch Reformed. The aspect again is to the covenants of grace. Fr. R. Joel,
Check out some modern Theolog’s here, on this subject. Especially the Dutch Reformed. The aspect again is to the covenants of grace.
Fr. R.

]]> By: Polycarp http://thechurchofjesuschrist.us/2009/09/top-10-worst-bible-passages-and-2-other-top-10-lists/#comment-11954 Polycarp Sun, 13 Sep 2009 22:28:30 +0000 http://thechurchofjesuschrist.us/?p=12392#comment-11954 I would disagree, Fr. Robert. While certain saints were quickened, they had to wait on Christ and His Church to be perfected - thus regeneration. I would disagree, Fr. Robert. While certain saints were quickened, they had to wait on Christ and His Church to be perfected – thus regeneration.

]]> By: Fr. Robert http://thechurchofjesuschrist.us/2009/09/top-10-worst-bible-passages-and-2-other-top-10-lists/#comment-11955 Fr. Robert Sun, 13 Sep 2009 21:50:48 +0000 http://thechurchofjesuschrist.us/?p=12392#comment-11955 Joel, No not at all, the aspect of "regeneration" in the OT, would be more along the lines of spiritual quickening. Also the true saints of God in the OT, were born again, or born from above by the Spirit of God (Heb.11). It seems Jesus thought that Nicodemus, as a teacher of Israel, should have known something of what Jesus spoke? (John 3:10) Fr. R. Joel,
No not at all, the aspect of “regeneration” in the OT, would be more along the lines of spiritual quickening. Also the true saints of God in the OT, were born again, or born from above by the Spirit of God (Heb.11). It seems Jesus thought that Nicodemus, as a teacher of Israel, should have known something of what Jesus spoke? (John 3:10)
Fr. R.

]]> By: Polycarp http://thechurchofjesuschrist.us/2009/09/top-10-worst-bible-passages-and-2-other-top-10-lists/#comment-11972 Polycarp Sun, 13 Sep 2009 21:18:41 +0000 http://thechurchofjesuschrist.us/?p=12392#comment-11972 No, I don't believe in Regeneration in the OT. Wouldn't that negate the Cross? No, I don’t believe in Regeneration in the OT. Wouldn’t that negate the Cross?

]]> By: Fr. Robert http://thechurchofjesuschrist.us/2009/09/top-10-worst-bible-passages-and-2-other-top-10-lists/#comment-11973 Fr. Robert Sun, 13 Sep 2009 21:09:36 +0000 http://thechurchofjesuschrist.us/?p=12392#comment-11973 Joel, Don't you believe there was "regeneration" in the OT? Joel,
Don’t you believe there was “regeneration” in the OT?

]]> By: Polycarp http://thechurchofjesuschrist.us/2009/09/top-10-worst-bible-passages-and-2-other-top-10-lists/#comment-11974 Polycarp Sun, 13 Sep 2009 20:59:00 +0000 http://thechurchofjesuschrist.us/?p=12392#comment-11974 There are some rough spots in the OT, but it points to the fact that no matter who good the Law was, it did nothing to change a person. The Grace provides us not merely a judicial standing, but a new position with God. We are regenerated. There are some rough spots in the OT, but it points to the fact that no matter who good the Law was, it did nothing to change a person. The Grace provides us not merely a judicial standing, but a new position with God. We are regenerated.

]]> By: Fr. Robert http://thechurchofjesuschrist.us/2009/09/top-10-worst-bible-passages-and-2-other-top-10-lists/#comment-11958 Fr. Robert Sun, 13 Sep 2009 20:42:21 +0000 http://thechurchofjesuschrist.us/?p=12392#comment-11958 In reality, we all should note Rom. 15:4, the word "whatever" 'was written...was written for our instruction', etc.. Fr. R. In reality, we all should note Rom. 15:4, the word “whatever” ‘was written…was written for our instruction’, etc..
Fr. R.

]]> By: YITLOG http://thechurchofjesuschrist.us/2009/09/top-10-worst-bible-passages-and-2-other-top-10-lists/#comment-11959 YITLOG Sun, 13 Sep 2009 19:27:13 +0000 http://thechurchofjesuschrist.us/?p=12392#comment-11959 I see can why no.5 is there...I have always hated that narrative...Why would he do this?! He should have gone out himself instead of sending her...Really-what kind of godly man would ever do that to any woman...Gosh they abused her till she died...He tells her to get let us be going...HE ___! Everyone's heart break for Jephthah (no.7)... What a lesson in not making vows to God...Well anyway his daughter was dedicated to Lord and lived... I see can why no.5 is there…I have always hated that narrative…Why would he do this?! He should have gone out himself instead of sending her…Really-what kind of godly man would ever do that to any woman…Gosh they abused her till she died…He tells her to get let us be going…HE ___!

Everyone’s heart break for Jephthah (no.7)… What a lesson in not making vows to God…Well anyway his daughter was dedicated to Lord and lived…

]]> By: Polycarp http://thechurchofjesuschrist.us/2009/09/top-10-worst-bible-passages-and-2-other-top-10-lists/#comment-11957 Polycarp Sun, 13 Sep 2009 03:59:25 +0000 http://thechurchofjesuschrist.us/?p=12392#comment-11957 This is the result of years of secularization in England, Jordan. They don't understand the Law and Grace. Of course, I know of a few here in this country who don't know the difference either. This is the result of years of secularization in England, Jordan. They don’t understand the Law and Grace. Of course, I know of a few here in this country who don’t know the difference either.

]]> By: Jordan Wilson http://thechurchofjesuschrist.us/2009/09/top-10-worst-bible-passages-and-2-other-top-10-lists/#comment-11956 Jordan Wilson Sun, 13 Sep 2009 03:54:08 +0000 http://thechurchofjesuschrist.us/?p=12392#comment-11956 Why #8? I always took it he never really meant it, but he was just testing Abraham asking for an offering that wasn't unheard of back then. Abraham didn't know the new laws yet, and probably thought, dang, my god is into that too? But i better do as he says. Why #8? I always took it he never really meant it, but he was just testing Abraham asking for an offering that wasn’t unheard of back then. Abraham didn’t know the new laws yet, and probably thought, dang, my god is into that too? But i better do as he says.

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