I wonder if we will have another Lakeland…oh wait….
Any revival compared to Lakeland, Toronto or Brownsville is automatically suspect, and by the steller Christian Broadcasting Network
Revival, like forest fires, can spark wherever the lightning of the Holy Spirit strikes people hungry for God. In recent years we have seen such revivals ignite in places like Toronto, Smithton, Pensacola and Lakeland. Reports are coming in that the beginnings of such an outpouring seem to be taking place at IHOP in Kansas City.
Here are some links…
ihop kansas city (topic on a forum)
Mike Bickle – International House of Prayer
Harp and Bowl (probably the most insightful
November 29th, 2009 5:43 am
These ‘movements’ all appeal to the flesh and itching ears frankly much like the ‘prosperity’ teachings and I say this as one who has been through a period of deception and interest with them in the past.
November 29th, 2009 9:29 am
What truly drew me to this post was that I thought it was occurring at the International House of Pancakes (IHOP).
November 29th, 2009 9:51 am
Jason, if you could see me now, you would see me shaking my head…
November 29th, 2009 6:18 pm
Hey, thanks for the link! I heard about this last night; Mike Bickle has an infamous past and this is just more of the same — he’s learned nothing about “rightly dividing the Word of God”.
November 29th, 2009 6:23 pm
He and Bob Jones have littered the landscape with this garbage and people still follow them! They bring adultery, death to children, and poverty to innocent believers.
November 29th, 2009 8:00 pm
[...] snake-oil salesmen and pathetic prophets The prolific poster Joel Watts notes an early advertisement for the latest miracle cure for ordinary Christian [...]
November 29th, 2009 8:10 pm
Polycarp:
Another link for you to read for research purposes in addition to the other fine links in your article. Just look at the “pro-revival” responses. It seems to be of the same pharisee mindset similar to the comments of the pro-Lakeland people.
http://charismamag.com/index.php/news/25464
November 29th, 2009 9:00 pm
Even worse… I am afraid that we will see this turn into the Lakeland-that-wasn’t.
November 30th, 2009 5:34 pm
Ernie Gruen, paging Ernie Gruen…
November 30th, 2009 8:52 pm
http://www.intotruth.org/kcp/Abberent%20Practises.pdf
December 1st, 2009 10:44 pm
[...] this post because I have been recently made aware of the fact from articles at Charismamag.com, Polycarp, CBN, and Random Jumbled Thoughts that another ‘revival’ is now coming down the pike. [...]
December 8th, 2009 9:48 pm
I’m just wondering, what is wrong with this “revival” that is happening? People are being healed, released from bondages, experiencing the Spirit, and much more. I have watched some of it and heard about it as well and yes, some of it is strange for me and a little uncomfortable, but it probably would have been strange to see Jesus preaching in the temple as a boy of the Red Sea parted. I am not looking to start any “fights” or anything, I’m just looking for some answers on both sides of the table.
Grace & Peace
December 8th, 2009 9:57 pm
Well, prove what you are seeing is true, lasting, and not a temporary flight of emotional fantasy?
January 11th, 2010 3:01 pm
Why don’t you prove that it’s not?
January 11th, 2010 3:05 pm
Sure – it is unbiblical and like others things not of God, it will not last
December 8th, 2009 11:38 pm
What are the “criteria” for a true revival? Is it too much to say that God is moving with this current event?
December 8th, 2009 11:41 pm
Yes, it is too much to say as we note that the doctrine from IHOP is unbiblical. Further, what are the biblical criteria for ‘revival’? There is no such thing in Scripture.
December 9th, 2009 10:01 am
Why is the doctrine unbiblical? Sorry if I just missed it in one of the links.
December 9th, 2009 10:05 am
I would suggest you take some time to read through:
http://thechurchofjesuschrist.us/tag/mike-bickle/
http://thechurchofjesuschrist.us/category/false-prophets/ihop/
http://thechurchofjesuschrist.us/category/false-prophets/bob-jones/
This is the same type of emotionalism which has dominated American pentecostalism for a long time now. Further, the ‘leaders’ of this mess have proven themselves time and time again to be dishonest, sinful, sick, and disturbed. They rely on angels and often times dismiss the bible. But, I’ll let you read the other articles.
December 24th, 2009 3:25 am
The most sincere theologians of Jesus day thought he was a heretic. No one but God can forgive sins…let alone heal the sick!! How can this little unlearned carpenter’s son be the Messiah? They missed all the signs, and could not wrap their brains around all the healings and miracles, so they sought to KILL HIM and His movement. How many people have you been witness of seeing healed in the name of Jesus? I mean cancer falling off faces, or joints that only worked with great pain no longer experiencing pain, or emphysema taken away… for years not being able to get full breath and now in minutes their lungs are healed? I cannot deny what I have experienced. You cannot take away my experience. Experience is knowledge.
How many people do you know who believe they have been set free from addiction not by a ten step program, but by the power of the Holy Spirit? How about addiction to anger or caustic humor like sarcasm? Again you cannot take away my experience.
Just because some men on the world stage rise to power and fall does not mean Holy Spirit is not working today just as in the time Christ walked the planet. Just becasue someone has a problem with sin does not mean gifts of prophecy have ceased, or the God of miracles has now gone to sleep since we don’t have the faith to move his hand into action on behalf of sick dying people. When Jesus tells the disciples to “go ye into all the world and preach THIS Gospel was he also talking to us (the believers of the 21st Century? Then was he talking to us when he told them to heal the sick, cast out demons etc? It is not about the guy on the stage, it is about you and me living like we are one with God. Christ in us the Hope of Glory, Christ in God, the Father in Him, the Father in us…John 16 and 17 I think. It is all about love and honor and POWER. I serve a powerful, resurrection dynamite powerful God who comes with the sound of a very strong wind.
December 24th, 2009 9:21 am
Are you really comparing Mike Bickle to Jesus Christ? Really?
By doing a few of things that Christ did, He was saying that He was God which is why they killed Him. They got the signs, they just didn’t believe. And the ‘movement’ part? Really?
Addiction to anger or sarcasm? Really?
Again, you misunderstand Christ if you think that His ‘movement’ is in any way related to Mike Bickle’s. To say it is all about ‘love and honor and POWER’ is to so warp the Gospel of Jesus Christ that no wonder you would actually defend Bickle and the rest of the garbage in Kansas City. It’s called discernment. Get some.
December 24th, 2009 12:23 pm
Dear Brother in Christ,
Christ in you, God in Christ, You in them, seated in Heavenly places yet still on the planet. interesting tension there huh?
Is Holy Spirit in you/me? Has Christ not given you/me the “power to become the son(s) of God’? What does that look like? How has Holy Spirit gotten a hold of you in such a way that the world around you is being turned upside down? How has he changed me in ways I could not possibly have changed myself all by myself? How are we displaying the manifest glory of God on the planet? How are you bringing the Kingdom of God in such a way that the New Covenant is powerfully infecting and changing peoples lives? I am not comparing Mike Bickle or anyone else to Jesus, I am comparing me and you to Jesus. How to we rate? How did the disciples rate? They were constantly a source of pain to him, but also at times they were a source of joy, victory and hope.
When John the Baptist, sitting in prison awaiting his death sent his disciples to inquire of Jesus “are you the one we have been waiting for or should we seek another”, Jesus replied,
“Tell him the lame walk, the blind see, and the Kingdom of God is preached. Jesus saw no separation between the works of healing and miracles and preaching the Kingdom. I hope we all get back to what Jesus taught and did. “Repent (turn 180 degrees) change the way you think!”
After his Mars Hill experience of having a most convincing argument yet seeing very few people give their lives to God, Paul gave up on speaking with “mans wisdom” and changed the way he presented the Good News. He writes that he “he did not come preaching in mere words but he came to them with power” displaying signs and wonders (that would be like Jesus). That has got to be part of the experience of our modern church as well. We live in such times when people have access to huge gobs of information and all kinds of religions and philosophies that arguments alone will not convince very many people (just like in Pauls day). But when they or their friends experience healing power that sets them free from lives addicted to all manner of caustic destruction then they cannot deny that our God is indeed God.
Finally I encourage you with the warning of Jesus when he spoke of a farmer who had little plants growing, but in the field were also weeds (tares} that had been sown by an enemy. He told his disciples to not tear out the tares. Why did he tell his disciples to not go after the weeds? Want it something about it ruining the crop because the workers would end up pulling up the good wheat with the bad? If all your time and energy is focused on bringing life changing moments to your community you will surely accomplish tons more than trying to warn us about leaders who teach falsehood.
Love and Fullness of Joy to you and yours,
Brent
December 24th, 2009 12:44 pm
First, Brent, it is clear that we are not ‘brothers in Christ.’ Not everyone who calls upon His name is one of His.
Christ is God, simple. What you fail to understand in your theology is the very real fact and mission of the Gospel. While you and the rest of your ilk may seek to have ‘power’ you elevate the Holy Spirit into a place which it does not belong and in doing so create more error-filled theology to support your rather shaky ground.
The ‘power’ to become the sons of God means authority or right. You might want to pick up a Greek bible and some more studying before you find yourself in more folly.
So, you aren’t comparing Bickle to Christ but just you and me? See, more problems. Further, your dominionist take on the Kingdom of God stands squarely against what the bible says. The Kingdom is the Church and it is already here. In denying this, you create more problems for yourself and hide the true Gospel of Jesus Christ.
Try again with ‘Repent.’ Christ came with signs and powers, and yes, the Church will have certain power as well, but you have falsely built a theology on the things you know not. If all that was needed was physical healings, then the Cross would have been needless and Paul’s constant letters of theology silly. No, physical healings were used to show that Christ was God and that He had defeated the plagues of this world. We are not called to be Him, but preach the Gospel. And that Gospel is the salvation of humanity, not the healing of cancer.
You have so twisted Mar’s Hill that I worry for you in many other areas of life. Paul did not give up speaking the Gospel or preaching or teaching the Gospel in ways which the audience understood. I’m sorry, but that’s just stupid. It is obvious that you have yet to read the NT in any light except what some snake-oil salesman as sold you. Paul’s letters, and his sermons, which came after Mar’s Hill is filled with deep theology and rhetoric. He didn’t just show up and heal people, etc… but his power was the Gospel. And as he wrote, if our Gospel be hid, it is hid to those who are lost, which you prove here today.
Paul also told us to mark out heretics and those who are false. To watch and guard the flock. This is what I am doing, guarding the flock and warning the Body of such evil doctrines as those given by Bickle and the Bunch, men who daily rape the Gospel of Jesus Christ and seek to destroy Him again, gaining for themselves money and followers, leading those followers into hell.
I suggest you begin to read the Bible, again, and leave the silliness, the wickedness, of Bickle and the Bunch behind
December 27th, 2009 11:42 pm
Sir,
For many years I had your attitude. Spiritually guided by conservative, Bethel Seminary of Minnesota, M-Div graduates. I had what I needed of God through the study of His word and the discipline of doing what was written there. Never heard a sermon about the Holy Spirit. You say my “ilk” make too much of the Holy Spirit. Maybe it is time for the “Holy Spirit experience pendulum” to swing back toward New Testament understanding.
When the Holy Spirit broke out in the Roman cohort, among ‘gentiles’, the early CHURCH FATHERS were more than perplexed. They were angry at Paul and couldn’t believe that THEIR GOD would let that happen. They truly did not see their religion as one that would include ‘Godless’ pagans. Not what they were expecting, it didn’t fit their understanding of what God would do. What was it that they saw or heard was happening that caused them to know “Holy Spirit had fallen on the gentiles”? What did it look like do you think? Where is that in your church experience? Jesus spoke of waiting until you are filled with power. He spoke of the incredibly great need of having the Holy Spirit, and that “ONE” could not come unless Jesus went to the Father. Paul speaks of the impartation of the Holy Spirit through the laying on of hands”. Where is that in your church experience?
What set me free…and I fought it for years, I really did fight it in my mind and my actions. But what set me free over a period of time… was the baptism of the Holy Spirit. Being in relationship with SPIRIT is what Jesus did lot’s of. He even said we must worship in Spirit and Truth. You have left out half of that at least. He even says he couldn’t heal anyone or do anything good by his own power.
Keep being a critic if you like. Like you Paul fought ‘liberalism’. He fought violently against what he percieved to be a ‘raping’ (your term) of his religion, until he had an experience he could not deny. and then he gave his life to Christ. He had a personal encounter with Jesus and then spent months without anyone around but the Holy Spirit.
I use to believe what you bellieve, but now after some personal encounters with the God of the Universe, I will never ever go back to believing what you believe.
I tried it. It is a powerless castrated dead piece of old testament covenant ’schmuck’ that you call Good News. You might as well be a Rotarian or Kiwanis and be a really good person and try your best to fulfill the 10 Commandments under the power of your flesh. That is what you are doing without the baptism of the Holy Spirit. All you have is John’s Baptism, a baptism for repentance of sin. But is was not a baptism of fire and the holy spirit. Yet John spoke of “one who would baptize us with fire”. You haven’t had that. You have not experienced Holy Spirit.
Hey if you want to throw out everything some men say about God because they have horrible sin in their lives, then you better cut the Psalms, Proverbs, and probably the love letters of Solomon, out of your BIBLE. What horrible men David and Solomon were. Adulterers, Murderers, Liars. From what you write they should have no part of the Kingdom, and no part of the Bride of Christ. ps…the Kingdom of God is the Church? The Kingdom of God is the Bride of Christ? Yes and much more… what do you do with Jesus saying that the Kingdom of God is within you? and he was speaking to Jew’s, most of whom he also called the sons of the devil.
May you be full of experiential knowledge of God’s love,
You really just need an experience with God that you have never had. It will change everything for you from BOOK KNOWLEDGE to Experiential Knowledge. Do you think Jesus gave up everything and died for you so you could become and expert about a book?
Brent the Beloved!
December 28th, 2009 1:17 am
Wow, Brent, you seem to think highly of yourself, don’t you.
I find it odd that you assume that I have never felt the move of God, the ‘Pentecostal’ experience in my life. See, here you would be wrong. Further, you want to make it about this experience, when I do not. The facts are simple – Bickle preaches a false doctrine, and with familiar spirits, seduces others into mass hysteria.
‘Church Fathers’ is a term applied to those in the late 2nd century, after Polycarp. Further, with the Roman cohort, it was Peter who brought the Gospel to them, not Paul. Further, the Jewish believers were not angry with Peter for the Gospel reaching the Gentiles – as Gentile converts to Judaism were known and accepted before Christianity – they were upset that he ate with them. You really, for all your degrees, fail in basic biblical knowledge.
Wow – so now you are comparing Bickle’s garbage to Christianity? Hardly. Further, your impotent knowledge of my belief system and my experience with God puts lies in yoru mouth, but what else should I expect?
And really? Actually, the bible says that murderers, adulterers and liars will have no part in the Kingdom of God. (Rev 22.15; 1st Cor 6.9-11) Considering that David and Solomon repented and the Law and turned to God and taught and preached right things, they are far and above what Jones, Bickle, and Bentley continue to do. If Jones, Bickle and the bunch would repent, turn to God, and then learn what is right, then they will have a part in the Kingdom, until then, they will die in their sins, and you – if you follow them and refuse to repent, believing their lies, then you too will die in your sins.
Brent, you need to be saved – you need Jesus Christ, not Bickle and the cult and pack of lies which he sells. I’ll be praying for you.
January 28th, 2010 5:52 am
Polycarp,
You are really missing out. The power and love of the Lord Jesus Christ flowing through the IHOP revival is awesome.
Thankfully, God doesn’t need your permission to move the way He chooses. Neither does IHOP need your endorsement.
God is confirming His Word going forth at IHOP with signs and wonders following.
When is the last time you had dozens of people saved and healed at your church?
Just because you don’t understand it doesn’t mean it’s not God. It only means that you lack understanding.
God is so good.
January 28th, 2010 8:05 am
Uh, Ed, where is your Scripture of the ’stuff’ going on at IHOP? And remember, simply because ‘miracles’ are happening and people are being ’saved’ doesn’t mark it as a movement of God.
January 28th, 2010 8:49 am
Hey Polycarp,
Yes, God’s miracles do validate the preaching of His Word.
18 Then the disciples of John reported to him concerning all these things. 19 And John, calling two of his disciples to him, sent them to Jesus, saying, “Are You the Coming One, or do we look for another?”
20 When the men had come to Him, they said, “John the Baptist has sent us to You, saying, ‘Are You the Coming One, or do we look for another?’ ” 21 And that very hour He cured many of infirmities, afflictions, and evil spirits; and to many blind He gave sight.
22 Jesus answered and said to them, “Go and tell John the things you have seen and heard: that the blind see, the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, the poor have the gospel preached to them. 23 And blessed is he who is not offended because of Me.” Lk 7:18-23
Notice, He didn’t answer John or His disciples directly, He told them, “Tell John what you’re seeing here, the Kingdom of God is invading people’s hearts, healing them and setting them free.”
Over the years, I’ve realized that sometimes when I’ve seen God moving, I’ve needed to adjust my theology to line up with His.
God is so good.
January 28th, 2010 8:52 am
No, they don’t –
“Not everyone who calls out to me, ‘Lord! Lord!’ will enter the Kingdom of Heaven. Only those who actually do the will of my Father in heaven will enter. On judgment day many will say to me, ‘Lord! Lord! We prophesied in your name and cast out demons in your name and performed many miracles in your name.’ But I will reply, ‘I never knew you. Get away from me, you who break God’s laws.’ (Mat 7:21-23 NLT)
It’s not theology, Ed, that needs adjustment to a con man.
January 28th, 2010 8:51 am
Hey, I love your Ref Tagger.
January 28th, 2010 9:22 am
Thanks, Ed. It does help, doesn’t it? If you click through, you can compare the passage with different bible versions, but I prefer the NLT
January 28th, 2010 9:53 am
The verse you quoted Polycarp is profound. It reminds me of 1Co 13 describing how you can grow in knowledge, move in spiritual gifts, understand your authority in Christ and cast out demons, and yet not have Love, the Love that only comes through intimacy with Him. Without that Love, our motives can get screwed up and we can disqualify ourselves from Heaven – very sobering indeed.
You can stand on the outside of God’s move and throw rocks if you want. God’s going to touch and heal and bless people regardless.
Among the thousands that are getting healed, delivered and set free, there was one young man, about 20 years old, who had made a very serious mistake and done something when he was 15 that most of us find utterly contemptable – he molested a younger sibling. He explained how his actions destroyed the relationships in his family. He described how much he hated himself. He was convinced he was beyond the forgiveness and love of Christ. He felt he was too dirty to ever be called God’s son. He underwent extensive counseling for years but it wasn’t until he got to IHOP and was surrounded by a spiritual environment that relentlessly pursues Christ and His Redeeming Love that God touched him and told him that He forgave Him and that he was His son. (Don’t take my word for it, check out his testimony for yourself. Simply follow this link , and on the right side, scroll down to the fourth “Saturday 2 of 2″ archived video and place your cursor over the :27 minute mark.)
It is God’s Love, His Kingdom, it’s undeniable and it’s irrefutable.
January 28th, 2010 10:05 am
Ed, that is not what that verse actually said. You might need to read it again. It was about doing things in the name of God and still being without God – not about love. The Bible is clear – that there are wheat and tares in the church, and just because someone calls themself by the name of Christ, and performs ‘great things’ or miracles, doesn’t make him anything special. You need to examine the bible, and you will find that Bickle, Jones, etc… are standing against God and His Church, and leading people to hell.
Further, we know that the adversary as powers as well, so by your own words, the adversary is godly.
The Love of God is telling the Truth – which you are not getting from Bickle.
January 28th, 2010 11:11 am
But God is Love, right? Your wheat and tares reference is a good one. I think we probably agree on more than we realize.
I appreciate that you are a 2 Ti 2.15 man of the Word.
I hear you about Jones and Bickle. I’ve read some things about them that would make you question if/why God would use them. Whether what I read was true or not, I can’t be certain. Then again God does use imperfect people, just like us.
I actually haven’t heard much of Bickle’s stuff. I downloaded one of his teachings on the end times and couldn’t get through it. It sounded to me like he was reaching a bit on some of his interpretations. He was making statements that I couldn’t support with other scripture (Ac 17.11). I couldn’t refute it, but I couldn’t support it either. I hear his stuff on the Song of Solomon is good though but I haven’t had a chance to check it out yet. But Bickle isn’t even that active in this Outpouring of the Spirit. This teacher Wes Hall showed up to teach his bible class one morning and couldn’t teach because his students were jerking and quaking like the Quakers of old. I guess it went on for about 8 or 9 hours. He said he had really good sermon notes that day too
You may not have had a chance to check out Josh’s testimony, but when I hear that young man speak, I hear the work of God’s Grace that has been accomplished in his heart and life. So while there may be some things about IHOP I don’t care for, I can’t deny God’s is at work there.
I’ve got to get back to work. I used my work email for this post which I check more frequently in case you’d like to continue off line. Otherwise, I’ll check back tonight.
Peace.
January 28th, 2010 11:39 am
Ed,
It is not just imperfections with Bickle and Jones, but being false prophets. It is not sins, but false and evil doctrines. God will not use people who’s words lead people to hell. You might want to search more on his issues with the Song of all Songs, as it is not historical either.
Show me in Scripture the things which Bickle is proposing, the jerking, the shaking, etc…
The problem is, is that when people ’see’ things, they don’t measure them. If you measure what Bickle is doing, you will not find God in it.