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	<title>Comments on: The Death of Grace and the Loss of a Soul</title>
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	<link>http://thechurchofjesuschrist.us/2009/11/the-death-of-grace-and-the-loss-of-a-soul/</link>
	<description>fides quaerens intellectum</description>
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		<title>By: Polycarp</title>
		<link>http://thechurchofjesuschrist.us/2009/11/the-death-of-grace-and-the-loss-of-a-soul/#comment-14665</link>
		<dc:creator>Polycarp</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Nov 2009 21:18:54 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Richard, thank you for your kind words. I have tried, of late, to understand the limitations of Christian in securing the faith in some. I cannot add commentary to your words here, but to hope that others will read them. 

For me, some dear friends of mine are atheists, and indeed, I believe their point of conversion was due in part to the religious experience; however, as you point out, this is not the reason for many. I do hope that we, as Christians, can come to treat those who are different than us in the same way we believe Christ treated those who disagreed with Him. 

Thanks again, Richard.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Richard, thank you for your kind words. I have tried, of late, to understand the limitations of Christian in securing the faith in some. I cannot add commentary to your words here, but to hope that others will read them. </p>
<p>For me, some dear friends of mine are atheists, and indeed, I believe their point of conversion was due in part to the religious experience; however, as you point out, this is not the reason for many. I do hope that we, as Christians, can come to treat those who are different than us in the same way we believe Christ treated those who disagreed with Him. </p>
<p>Thanks again, Richard.</p>
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		<title>By: Richard Wade</title>
		<link>http://thechurchofjesuschrist.us/2009/11/the-death-of-grace-and-the-loss-of-a-soul/#comment-14661</link>
		<dc:creator>Richard Wade</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Nov 2009 20:45:01 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Hello, Joel,

I write the advice column at Friendly Atheist that responded to the letter you have discussed here.  I want to thank you for your positivism and your rejection of the deplorable attitudes of the church described in the letter. I hope that your more humane reading of your religious principles continues to prosper, and to gradually replace the  destructive and retrograde influences of some of your brethren.  

That said, I want to clarify a misconception about atheists that often is perpetuated by stories like the one in the letter. The misconception is that people become atheists mainly as a reaction to abuse at the hands of clergy or flock, or because of lamentable social policies by a church. 

I have counseled and corresponded with many hundreds of atheists, and while such episodes are sadly too frequent in their stories, it is very rare that these experiences are the main cause of their loss of faith.  Many come from religious backgrounds where the people and the policies have nothing objectionable, nothing abusive or loathsome. Often they have only warm and loving experiences in their religious community, and it is with great sadness when they realize that they can no longer be a part of it.  

By far, the foremost cause of apostasy is that over a period of many years the person’s mind gradually develops a need for convincing evidence for the claims and assumptions of their religion, beyond the reassurances of their clerics or the attempts at logic of apologists. The rational part of their mind continues to grow and to have a hunger that cannot be  satisfied by urging from others to “just believe,” or the offered examples of “evidence” in support of the beliefs that are simply too thin or too full of holes to satisfy them.

Most of them have tried very very hard to keep their faith and make it work for them, but it just didn’t.

Think of it like someone developing a biological need for a certain kind of food that is not available where they live. No amount of trying to make the local food resemble or taste like what they need, no amount of  compensating with some other food will help them.  They steadily become malnourished and sick, and will eventually perish unless they go to where they can find the nourishment that they need. 

It is not that they are somehow “better” or “worse” persons than those without this need, they are simply different. 

I offer this insight to you hoping it will help you to understand people who lose their faith.  You have and will continue to encounter them in your community.  Perhaps if you understand them more accurately, then the shunning, ostracizing and hateful abuse that they often suffer from the faithful when they leave can be avoided. Sadly, they are often treated in very “un-Christian” ways when they have done nothing to provoke it.  Some may have some bitterness or resentment toward their religious background that is connected with such painful  experiences, but for the most part, their actual loss of faith resulted beforehand from having a built-in need that faith, though earnestly applied, could not fulfill.   

Please be good to your apostates, accepting them and releasing them with love. They are not your enemies; they can even be very helpful allies.  Mutual understanding is far more important than mutual agreement. I wish you and your fellow Christians peace and good will. 

Richard Wade</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hello, Joel,</p>
<p>I write the advice column at Friendly Atheist that responded to the letter you have discussed here.  I want to thank you for your positivism and your rejection of the deplorable attitudes of the church described in the letter. I hope that your more humane reading of your religious principles continues to prosper, and to gradually replace the  destructive and retrograde influences of some of your brethren.  </p>
<p>That said, I want to clarify a misconception about atheists that often is perpetuated by stories like the one in the letter. The misconception is that people become atheists mainly as a reaction to abuse at the hands of clergy or flock, or because of lamentable social policies by a church. </p>
<p>I have counseled and corresponded with many hundreds of atheists, and while such episodes are sadly too frequent in their stories, it is very rare that these experiences are the main cause of their loss of faith.  Many come from religious backgrounds where the people and the policies have nothing objectionable, nothing abusive or loathsome. Often they have only warm and loving experiences in their religious community, and it is with great sadness when they realize that they can no longer be a part of it.  </p>
<p>By far, the foremost cause of apostasy is that over a period of many years the person’s mind gradually develops a need for convincing evidence for the claims and assumptions of their religion, beyond the reassurances of their clerics or the attempts at logic of apologists. The rational part of their mind continues to grow and to have a hunger that cannot be  satisfied by urging from others to “just believe,” or the offered examples of “evidence” in support of the beliefs that are simply too thin or too full of holes to satisfy them.</p>
<p>Most of them have tried very very hard to keep their faith and make it work for them, but it just didn’t.</p>
<p>Think of it like someone developing a biological need for a certain kind of food that is not available where they live. No amount of trying to make the local food resemble or taste like what they need, no amount of  compensating with some other food will help them.  They steadily become malnourished and sick, and will eventually perish unless they go to where they can find the nourishment that they need. </p>
<p>It is not that they are somehow “better” or “worse” persons than those without this need, they are simply different. </p>
<p>I offer this insight to you hoping it will help you to understand people who lose their faith.  You have and will continue to encounter them in your community.  Perhaps if you understand them more accurately, then the shunning, ostracizing and hateful abuse that they often suffer from the faithful when they leave can be avoided. Sadly, they are often treated in very “un-Christian” ways when they have done nothing to provoke it.  Some may have some bitterness or resentment toward their religious background that is connected with such painful  experiences, but for the most part, their actual loss of faith resulted beforehand from having a built-in need that faith, though earnestly applied, could not fulfill.   </p>
<p>Please be good to your apostates, accepting them and releasing them with love. They are not your enemies; they can even be very helpful allies.  Mutual understanding is far more important than mutual agreement. I wish you and your fellow Christians peace and good will. </p>
<p>Richard Wade</p>
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		<title>By: Polycarp</title>
		<link>http://thechurchofjesuschrist.us/2009/11/the-death-of-grace-and-the-loss-of-a-soul/#comment-14657</link>
		<dc:creator>Polycarp</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Nov 2009 18:46:25 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Thank for the kind words, Fr. Steve.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thank for the kind words, Fr. Steve.</p>
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		<title>By: padre steve</title>
		<link>http://thechurchofjesuschrist.us/2009/11/the-death-of-grace-and-the-loss-of-a-soul/#comment-14656</link>
		<dc:creator>padre steve</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Nov 2009 18:43:36 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Joel

Good post.  I see this type of attitude in some ministers and chaplains that I have known at various times.  I agree that this is one of the big reasons for the erosion of faith in this country.  The imposition of near East customs that were historically part of Judaism on Christian people is painful to watch and painful to listen to when you see it happening in front of your eyes. I have had to struggle with faith and realize that any kind of fundamentalism ultimately produces the same fruit.  

Peace, Steve+</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Joel</p>
<p>Good post.  I see this type of attitude in some ministers and chaplains that I have known at various times.  I agree that this is one of the big reasons for the erosion of faith in this country.  The imposition of near East customs that were historically part of Judaism on Christian people is painful to watch and painful to listen to when you see it happening in front of your eyes. I have had to struggle with faith and realize that any kind of fundamentalism ultimately produces the same fruit.  </p>
<p>Peace, Steve+</p>
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